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Green signal when following block is clear [Implemented]

Posted: 21.03.2016, 15:39
by KPeter
I may have set up something wrong fundamentally. What I want to do is the following:

- A train stops at a red block signal when the following block is occupied or reserved.
- The signal turns green when the occupied block is clear and the train departs
- The signal turns red when the train enters the following block.

Up to this point it works fine. What I then want is:

- The signal turns green when the train leaves the following block and that block is clear.

This I can't seem to achieve. It stays red until the cycle repeats. Is there a way to achieve this? I probably have the default logic wrong but I just can't get it to do this.

Thanks
Peter

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 21.03.2016, 15:59
by rjversluis
Hi Peter,

maybe you are looking for this option:
http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=roc ... nal_aspect

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 21.03.2016, 21:39
by rvooyen
Sorry Rob to jump in here, but this is an issue we have all discussed many times, without getting any further. Besra knows this also.

Rocrail uses the so called closed block setting for signals as mostly used in Germany.
This means the signal is always red unless a train approaches, when it will turn yellow (only next block free) or green if two next blocks free.

Peter and myself and many others would like the option of the Open block setting as used in many countries.
This is based on the train passing thru a block and setting the signal, which then goes yellow as the block clears and then goes AND STAYS green when the second next block is cleared.

Since this is not being considered in Rocrail I have used ACTIONS to achieve the above with signals going to green as the train passes by. PETER - this is what you describe - use ACTIONS for now.

Regards,

Robert

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 21.03.2016, 23:05
by Besra
Hi,
rvooyen wrote:Besra knows this also.
;) Yes, I do.
rvooyen wrote:Rocrail uses the so called closed block setting for signals as mostly used in Germany.
The second part is still wrong: there is an "open block" system in Germany, too ("Selbstblock" - among other systems as I was informed by a user, but I am not a railway technician so I don't know the details).
rvooyen wrote:Peter and myself and many others would like the option of the Open block setting as used in many countries.
Including Germany ;) I would also appreciate it, but I think it is not that easy to implement. One would need to be able to specify the "next block" (only one, no "open block" if there's more than one block ahead to be considered)... I.e. new block option "Open Block" disabled (default) or enabled. If enabled, necessarily needs the next block to be specified (by drop-down field or whatever). If next block is occupied, stay with red signal as usual. As soon as next block is free, switch to green. So far this can be achieved by actions only. Thanks to Tom, the information on how to set it up is available in English, too: http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=sig ... ck_signals

Regards
Besra

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 11:08
by rjversluis
Just take in account the following:

if there are one or more possible destinations and at least one is not occupied.
Should the signal set to green? The block does not know which train will come in.
Routes and blocks have there own permissions which could exclude an incoming train.
So its beats me when to set the green aspect; Logically its not possible.

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 11:47
by rvooyen
The yellow (one next block) or green (two next blocks) free is when ONLY one route/block to go to, so it is quite logical. So really only for longer runs with at least two blocks and no splits.

The logic:
Block ahead free but its signal red means yellow.
Block ahead free and its signal yellow or green means green.
Basically block signal aspect takes account of next block state and the next block signal aspect.


Robert

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 11:54
by rjversluis
Hi Robert,

and how to handle if there are multiple next blocks and permissions?

A block does not know what kind of a train will roll in, so it cannot signal green or yellow.

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 13:39
by Besra
if there are one or more possible destinations and at least one is not occupied.
and how to handle if there are multiple next blocks and permissions?
Hi Rob,

as I wrote before: If there are multiple destinations the "open block" system cannot be applied. To be used only on a main track with no branches and single direction traffic.

Best regards
Besra

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 14:08
by Besra
Hi Rob,

here is what it should look like on a German railway:
Zwischenablage-1.png
Note that in the Netherlands the first signal S01 in the open block system should probably show yellow instead of green. But this should depend on option http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=roc ... ext_is_red (active for Germany, inactive for the Netherlands)

Regards
Besra

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 14:42
by rvooyen
This is the way blocks, signals and locs interact in many countries incl UK, US, NL etc etc, with three aspect signals.
sit1.jpg
sit2.jpg
sit3.jpg
Sit4 in next post

Robert

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 14:44
by rvooyen
Sit4
sit4.jpg
Again, this is ONLY for one route between blocks in one direction, no junctions.

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 14:51
by rjversluis
OK,

it seems that my objection is ignored, and the examples posted here are theoretically and mostly not found on model railroads.

The only logic I see is:

There is only one next block and does not have any permission restrictions regarding train types, length and so on.
The block must try to find, if its not occupied, a follow-up destination. If there is only one with no restrictions, the signal can be set to green.
But if two blocks, A and C, have the same destination B in the middle, the signals in A and C should be green. Right?

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 16:08
by Besra
and does not have any permission restrictions regarding train types, length and so on.
Hi Rob,

I do not understand why it has anything to do with permissions, train types etc. The signals just show whether the train is allowed to leave the block. This is checked at **enter** I think. If the train is not allowed to pass through the block, the signal must switch to red at **enter** (if it is not red). This is what Rocrail already does. In my opinion nothing has to be changed here.

What I think is needed is the following:
  • Enable / Disable option for "Open Block System" as a block property
  • Being able to specify the "Next Block" for this block by hand. For instance by using a drop-down list (for "Open Block System" only). From my point of view no auto-next-block-detection is needed - let's keep it simple.
  • If block is an "Open Block", switch to red aspect after trains has reached "Next Block" (**enter**). Just like it is now.
  • As long as the "Next Block" is occupied keep the red aspect.
  • As soon as the "Next Block" is free, switch to either green (Germany) or yellow (depending on this option: http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=roc ... ext_is_red)
  • Switching from yellow to green maybe depending on signal aspect of "Next Block" (I did not think this part over... but something similar is yet implemented in Rocrail, see above link again.)
Regards
Besra

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 16:16
by rjversluis
Hi Bernd,
Besra wrote: I do not understand why it has anything to do with permissions, train types etc.
then I do not understand the open block concept.
As long as its unknown which train runs in it is not predictable if it is allowed to use the following block and therefor the signal cannot show green without implementing a crystal bowl.
This issue is completely ignored in this thread.

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Posted: 22.03.2016, 18:51
by Besra
Hi Rob,

yes, I think there is a misunderstanding. It is not about a prediction for the "next block". Not at all.
The aspect of the current block's signal should be handled according to the next block. For example in blocks A, B, C.

A loco is entering block A: It is checked, whether it can drive further to block B. If not, signal A is set to red (or stays red). If the loco is allowed to drive to B, signal A is set to green.
As soon as the loco enters B, signal A is set to red and it is checked whether or not the loco may continue to C. If not, signal B is set to red (or stays red). If the loco is allowed to drive to C, signal B is set to green. Exactly the same as above and exactly how it works today.
As soon as loco enters C, signal B is set back to red (still as usual). But now, because block B is free, signal A should no longer stay red (as it currently will). Signal A should be set to green (or yellow), because block B is free. Hence, block B is the "next block" for block A.
That is, block A (an "open block") has to monitor the state of Block B. Free or not free. No prediction of what could be, just look and see ;)

Maybe you can also take a look at this example http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=sig ... cksignale1 which shows how an "open block system" (in fact it's the German "Selbstblock") can be achieved using actions. But using actions is not very convenient...

Regards
Bernd