[Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

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rvooyen
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[Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 07.06.2018, 14:16

Hi,

Attached a small (modular) plan recently run at our club.

I have noticed that the open block function only sets the signal to red on IN, when it should set it to red on ENTER (or reserved).

The example:

Loc NS6404 is in block RvO01-B22. It will travel anticlockwise around the layout first going to block MTGN06.

It is on the B22 siding and the signal Sg4 is closed block for the siding. All OK. Signal goes red on MTGN06 enter as normal.
If it starts then the MTGN06 block is reserved. At this point I would expect the mainline signal of block RvO01-B2 (Sg2) to go RED, even if it is open block for MTGN06 as configured. It does not even go red when the MTGN06 block is entered (blue), but only goes red when the loc reaches the IN sensor (block pink). (In this case virtual). This is clearly too late.

We would like the signal to go red at least on ENTER. On reserved might be difficult because of the two tracks (which one is reserving?). However a mainline train would stop at the sign (even if green) because the block ahead is reserved so signal red is more appropriate.

I do not know if this is an issue with modular layouts or not since I have not seen it on my main layout with open blocks.

Regards,

Robert
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rjversluis
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 07.06.2018, 14:24

Hi Robert,

this is not a modular plan but a levelled one.
Try to reduce the issue with a 2 or 3 block plan.

rvooyen
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 07.06.2018, 15:00

HI,

It is really too hot to work on the trains but......

The problem can easily be resolved by using closed block for all signals however,
we would like to run the mainline as open block as far as possible. Why can't the signal react to the enter since it does react to the in?

We cannot add blocks at will since the modules are as they are one block per module per direction.
What is a leveled plan?? This is a plan built from modules so a modular plan - maybe need to add the underlying modules to the issue?

See attached underlying modules:

Robert
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 07.06.2018, 15:20

Robert,

you misunderstand me.

I would like a none modular plan, a tiny plan with only 3 blocks in a row, in which your problem can be reproduced.
The modular plan dependency can be excluded in this case.

PS: if you create an issue with a modular plan, the modules will be showed as levels because after merging the modules in the Rocrail server its flat.

rvooyen
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 07.06.2018, 16:58

OK. I have made an example in the demo plan see attached.

The example:

Place loc in block 3. Start the loc, it will go to block 4.

You will see that signal s2 works correctly, on enter it goes red.
However signal s3 (open block) of block 2 stays on green as the train goes thru block 4 and only goes red on the IN for block 4.
It should go red at least on the enter for block 4 and preferably on a loc reserving block 4.

Regards,

Robert
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 07.06.2018, 17:03

Hi Robert,

is the Wiki correct in this case?
http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=blo ... open_block

rvooyen
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 07.06.2018, 20:11

It hangs on the definition of "occupied".

Signal should be red if the train should not enter the block.
This is:
- If the block is occupied. In mij opinion this means ENTER and IN, ie the blue and pink state.
- If the block is reserved (by another loc). Rocrail will not allow a loc to enter this block, therefore the signal should show red.

So red state if block reserved, entered, occupied.
Example.jpg
EXAMPLE: Loc E03 is started and reserves block 4. Signal for V200 in block 2 remains green - should go to red.
Example2.jpg
E03 has entered block 4, signal set to red but open signal remains green.
Example3.jpg
E03 is IN block 4 only now is the open block signal set to red.

Care that the reserved state (for the open block) is from another loc, ie not it's own reservation.

Regards,

Robert
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 08.06.2018, 06:51

Hi Robert,

I will look into this.

You wrote:
I do not know if this is an issue with modular layouts or not since I have not seen it on my main layout with open blocks.
1) Its not a modular layout issue.
2) Whats different on your main layout?
3) Open signal is implemented for you and you did test it positively...

rvooyen
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 08.06.2018, 09:20

Hi,

"1) Its not a modular layout issue."
Agree - is not a modular layout issue.

"2) What's different on your main layout?"
I do not think I tested this particular situation on my layout. I use open signals only for mainline single blocks.

"3) Open signal is implemented for you and you did test it positively..."
Yes it works as required on single line blocks.

This is a situation that has come up recently - see the demo example. Hope it can be resolved.

Thanks,

Robert

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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 08.06.2018, 10:07

Hi Robert,

just to be sure before I will invest some time:

Is "Open block" not exclusive for single line blocks? (Its implemented this way.) Can it be used with parallel blocks? (Do not use it in this case?)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blokstelsel

rvooyen
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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rvooyen » 08.06.2018, 11:36

Rob,

In most cases I agree with you on single blocks.

However this example is of a mainline and a siding coming together to the mainline.
The siding signal remains closed block.

The mainline is open block because of possible high speed trains, wanting to see green where possible to avoid slowing down.

The logic for an open block signal:
Green if open block id state not reserved/entered/occupied and signal is not red,
Yellow if above but next block signal is red.
Red if open block state is entered or occupied and (if logically possible) reserved by other loc.

For simplicity of logic It would be enough to change from only occupied (IN) as it is now, to entered (ENTER) since IN then not needed.
See example in demo.

Not looking for super duper solution, just change from IN to ENTER for red is enough I think.

Thanks for any resolution.

Robert

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Re: [Issue] Open block signal to Red only on IN.

Post by rjversluis » 08.06.2018, 12:45

Hi Robert,

I do not think you can use "Open Block" in this case.
The link to block 04 is set in block 02 and the signal aspect for open block is only changed if something has been changed in block 02.
What you want is look up if block 04 is reserved if it is used as open block in another block, which means is must iterate all block at reservation...

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