Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help! Topic is solved

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rvooyen
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Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 10.12.2018, 12:37

All my two and three aspect signals up to now have individually addressed output=colour.
So output 1=red, 2=green, 3=yellow. This is simple to configure I have 50+ signals.

Now I am for a clubmember on the modular layout who has three aspect signals using K84 type signal decoder eg with two outputs per address trying to get this setup.
I have set this up on my desk and I find the following direct (CS output) addressing table using outputs 1 and 2 each with a red and green output. The wiring is Red to 1R, Green to 1G and yellow to 2R.

Red = Output 1= Red, Output 2 = Green
Green = 1=Green, 2= Green
Yellow = 1=Green, 2=Red

or Red = R,G, Green=G,G and Yellow=G R.

Now I have been trying for hours to get this into Rocrail's signal addressing of Red address and Green address etc.
I have tried all possible combinations of the Standard Config with paired outputs etc and the Pattern type as well.
The lights never match up for all three aspects. Sometimes wrong colour sometimes two colours at same time etc etc etc!

HELP! Can someone point me in the right direction since this type of addressing is very common. I am just to dumb to translate from the hardware to the Rocrail addressing system setup.
I tried reading the wiki but that did not help me.

This must be easy - I just cannot see it.

Thanks in advance,

Robert
Last edited by rvooyen on 10.12.2018, 15:50, edited 1 time in total.

smitt48
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Re: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by smitt48 » 10.12.2018, 12:46

Hi Robert,

Can you build a test plan with your signal and your set-up. This easier to follow than a write-up.

Tom

rvooyen
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Re: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 10.12.2018, 13:20

Tom all is well inside RR It is the output to the sign is the issue. I can see the outputs being sent

Address gate an ports are sent but dont match the required aspect patterns. Will send later with example.

Robert

Besra
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Re: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by Besra » 10.12.2018, 13:54

Hi Robert,

the table from https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=si ... n#patterns does't help?
Zwischenablage-2.png
Zwischenablage-2.png (8.03 KiB) Viewed 260 times
This is an example cofiguration (see "3-aspects signal, sequence for switching decoders"). You may have to exchange gates of course.

Mind the addressing is done like this, i.e. no values in white and yellow:
Zwischenablage-3.png
Zwischenablage-3.png (3.84 KiB) Viewed 260 times
Regards
Bernd

rvooyen
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Re: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 10.12.2018, 14:45

Thanks Besra,

I have tried just about every combination.
The OUTPUT (as made on the CS) needs to be:
adr 1 R adr 2 G gives Red
adr 1 G adr 2 G gives Green
adr 1 G adr 2 R gives Yellow per the hardware of the signal.

I have not been able to fins a config that will do this (standard/paired, or Patterns)

I attach an issue.zip.

It is signal S2.

In this example using patterns the result is:
Rocrrail Actual
Red Red
Yellow Green
Green Red

Using the standard as follows:
133 R
133 G
134 R and paired gives

Rocrail Actual
Red Yellow
Yellow Yellow
Green Red.

Hardware - Signal decoder (continuous output)
Address 133 R and G
Address 134 Y

Thanks,

Robert
Attachments
issue.zip
(9.23 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

rvooyen
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Re: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 10.12.2018, 15:50

Eureka! I finally cracked it. Trial and error.

Maybe this should be written up since it is a very common situation - three aspect signal and decoder with two outputs per address.
ConnectSignal.jpg
InterfaceSignal.jpg
Seems a very comlex way to configure signals. Woe to the newby!!
Anyway it finally did what was asked. R=R G=G and Y=Y.

Thanks Besra and Tom.

Robert

Besra
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Re: Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by Besra » 10.12.2018, 18:34

Hi Robert,

I agree it's always a sort of a puzzle to get it working :oops:
What you found out is similar to the table I posted above, except for the gates under Green Address are swapped plus you omitted a few gate settings (which may or may not be a problem).
With the configuration you posted, did you check for changing from yellow to green directly (via context menu)? I expect the signal to show yellow still. Not sure though, depends on decoder config.

My suggestion:
Zwischenablage-4.png
Zwischenablage-4.png (8.35 KiB) Viewed 237 times
Compare it to the table posted earlier: Only gates under green address are swapped (this cannot be foreseen, depends on how you wire the signal to the decoder and/or decoder configuration).

Regards
Bernd

rvooyen
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Re: Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 11.12.2018, 13:47

Ha ha I just checked my last tries that now work for all commands and in particular the normal order of Red to Yellow to Green back to Red. And guess what?

The table I independently found is THE SAME as your table!

You know how it works, I don't and just try stuff! How to explain to the newby's to Rocrail? So complex it seems.

At the show this weekend I had a number of prople come up to say they had tried Rocrail, but found it difficult to learn.
Some went to commercial packages that have big how-to manuals that helped them.

Rocrail is very innovative so it is hard to write and keep a manual up to date. Even very experienced me sometimes finds new stuff with the updates.

Thanks for your input Bernd now I try to understand it!

Robert

Besra
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Re: Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by Besra » 11.12.2018, 20:16

Hi Robert,
The table I independently found is THE SAME as your table!
Cool 8)
How to explain to the newby's to Rocrail? So complex it seems.
I don't know any better than I tried to with the wiki page https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=signal-setup-en. And yes, it's a complex matter.
Taking your example: You can wire your yellow light to either 2nd Address red or green. Plus with your command station and with mine gate red is green and gate green is red :? . How many tables to cover all possible combinations? Eight? Won't help but confuse, I guess.
One table to start with, the rest is puzzling out I am afraid.

By the way, I am in favour of any idea for improvement.
Thanks for your input Bernd now I try to understand it!
You are welcome!

Regards
Bernd

rvooyen
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Re: Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by rvooyen » 11.12.2018, 21:21

I checked the signal setup again. Yikes! You need genius level to follow and understand.

My suggest would be to work back from the hardware CS.

On my IB I could easily determine the required commands RG and address to get the aspects.
It was trying to configure this in RR that is so complex that I still don't understand.

In IB
1R 2G was red
1G 2G was green
1G 2R was yellow.
Why not simply use this in RR?

But I realise that many countries have complex signalling eg Italy with 14!!!! aspects.

But it now works. Suggestion to all is to use decoders with individually addressable outputs eg Digikeijs 4018. Then simple.

Thanks again

Robert

Besra
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Re: Solved puzzle: Three aspect signal - two output decoder. Help!

Post by Besra » 11.12.2018, 23:20

Hi Robert,
My suggest would be to work back from the hardware CS.
Exactly. That's the way I decoded it for me :)
As always, this does not work in any case. Some CS don't have hardware buttons...
In IB
1R 2G was red
1G 2G was green
1G 2R was yellow.
Why not simply use this in RR?
Well, it's the same if you write R instead of G and vice versa! Compare it to the last table I posted. It's that simple, isn't it?

That is:

Code: Select all

IB      Wiki    working

1R 2G   1G 2G    1G 2R
1G 2G   1R 2G    1R 2R
1G 2R   1R 2R    1R 2G
See that? The difference between IB and "working" is R and G are interchanged.
Why the wiki says something else? Well, the example is for a signal with yellow wired to 2G (IB!) instead of 2R (IB!). It was your decision. You could have wired yellow to 2G (IB!) and the wiki table was perfect.

I don't know why R and G are interchanged. I think that this is hardware depended, although I am not sure about it. I.e. if you don't use the IB but command station XY, R and G may not be interchanged. I have no better explanation.

The Question is how to write that down in an understandable, yet general form? I have no clue :(

Regards
Bernd

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