Green signal when following block is clear [Implemented]

rvooyen
Posts: 973
Joined: 08.12.2012, 11:31
Location: Netherlands (Hilversum)

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rvooyen » 23.03.2016, 18:25

Hi Woody,

I don't think this is the same. We are discussing a baanvak met block signalen and how the signals work with each other.
When running in auto mode with signals this is important to us all, if we have signals on our layout.

Did you ever use "Koploper" this had an open block method of joining signals and blocks along the track. Rocrail uses the closed block method.
Both are correct and both can be used on the prototype and on any layout, with certain restrictions.

Robert

Besra
Moderator
Posts: 3753
Joined: 10.08.2009, 17:54
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by Besra » 24.03.2016, 08:36

Hi Rob,

nice, it is already working partly!
Zwischenablage-1.png
Zwischenablage-1.png (3.13 KiB) Viewed 182 times
This is the beginning. Loco in b1 automode on. S1 in my opinion should show red instead of green because the train is not yet startet. S2 OK, S3 OK if Green aspect if next is red is not checked, but should show green if this option is checked. (S4 OK)

Zwischenablage-2.png
Zwischenablage-2.png (3.75 KiB) Viewed 182 times
Now the train was started and loco is in b3. S1 should show yellow with above option not checked, or green with option checked. S2 OK. S3 OK if option not checked, but should be green if option is checked.

Zwischenablage-3.png
Zwischenablage-3.png (2.87 KiB) Viewed 182 times
Loco is in b4 now. S1 should show green in any case. S2 should, depending on above option, either show yellow or green. S3 OK, S4 OK

Best regards
Bernd
Last edited by Besra on 24.03.2016, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.

rjversluis
Site Admin
Posts: 41677
Joined: 10.04.2006, 08:48
Location: Speyer, Germany
Contact:

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rjversluis » 24.03.2016, 08:48

Hi Bernd,

are you sure the server is up to date?

Besra
Moderator
Posts: 3753
Joined: 10.08.2009, 17:54
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by Besra » 24.03.2016, 09:56

Hi Rob,

I downloaded and installed 10990 this morning. OK, I see 10991 is available...

But the result is the same.
Zwischenablage-4.png
Zwischenablage-4.png (2.92 KiB) Viewed 181 times
Loco has driven all the way to b4, all signals red.


But if I switch auto mode off and on again I see this:
Zwischenablage-5.png
Zwischenablage-5.png (2.97 KiB) Viewed 181 times
Regards
Bernd

rjversluis
Site Admin
Posts: 41677
Joined: 10.04.2006, 08:48
Location: Speyer, Germany
Contact:

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rjversluis » 24.03.2016, 12:06

Hi Bernd,

10.993+

extra CPU is needed after every block unlock to inform all block with open block signalling to check there aspect. :(
This is a 'stupid' and unsave signalling system.

Besra
Moderator
Posts: 3753
Joined: 10.08.2009, 17:54
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by Besra » 24.03.2016, 12:48

extra CPU is needed after every block unlock to inform all block with open block signalling to check there aspect. :(
This is a stupid and unsave signalling system.
Hi Rob,

I think you always look ahead, i.e. how to set the aspects of the signals in front of the train. This is probably why you think you get in trouble with permissions etc. Don't look at the signals in front of the train ;).
It is only about how to handle the signals behind the train. These should be set according to the state of their next block. So a block only has to look at its next block:
If block is free and if the next block is occupied: stay red
If block is free and if the next block is free and its signal is not on red: green
If block is free and if the next block is free but its signal is on red: yellow (green if option "Green aspect if next is red" is active)

The only problem is to inform the blocks backwards in the chain about a status change.
For instance if b3 becomes free it has to inform b2 about it. S2 has to change the aspect accordingly. b2 now has to inform b1 in case the aspect of S2 changed. Only if the aspect has changed. That way a maximum of two blocks backwards are informed. Not all blocks on the layout, this would indeed waste CPU power for nothing.

Only one more thing to consider: At initialisation (auto mode on) the signal aspect of a block configured as an "open block" should not be changed (do not set to red as for a "normal block", leave as is).

Regards
Bernd

rvooyen
Posts: 973
Joined: 08.12.2012, 11:31
Location: Netherlands (Hilversum)

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rvooyen » 24.03.2016, 23:18

Rob,

Signals are not working under 10991, but I think you know that.
I swap between 10800 and 10991 with test plan.
testplan.jpg
Robert

rjversluis
Site Admin
Posts: 41677
Joined: 10.04.2006, 08:48
Location: Speyer, Germany
Contact:

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rjversluis » 25.03.2016, 07:53

rjversluis wrote:10.993+
Test reports based on revisions lower then that are not very helpful.

Besra
Moderator
Posts: 3753
Joined: 10.08.2009, 17:54
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by Besra » 25.03.2016, 09:11

Hi Rob,

it is working with 10995 but I have my doubts this is the right way to do it. The way it is implemented now is indeed not safe. For instance
Zwischenablage-1.png
Zwischenablage-1.png (2.78 KiB) Viewed 131 times
if this is the loco position and signals are all red when I switch on auto mode I get this
Zwischenablage-2.png
Zwischenablage-2.png (2.88 KiB) Viewed 131 times
Why? It is not known whether loco has permission to drive on, the loco has not yet being started but signals are green/yellow. Yes, unsafe, you are right. But it was not meant like this.

Perhaps you like to think about what I wrote yesterday:
Don't look at the signals in front of the train ;).
It is only about how to handle the signals behind the train. These should be set according to the state of their next block [triggered by a moving train]. So a block only has to look at its next block:
If block is free and if the next block is occupied: stay red
If block is free and if the next block is free and its signal is not on red: green
If block is free and if the next block is free but its signal is on red: yellow (green if option "Green aspect if next is red" is active)

The only problem is to inform the blocks backwards in the chain about a status change.
For instance if b3 becomes free it has to inform b2 about it. S2 has to change the aspect accordingly. b2 now has to inform b1 in case the aspect of S2 changed. Only if the aspect has changed. That way a maximum of two blocks backwards are informed. Not all blocks on the layout, this would indeed waste CPU power for nothing.

Only one more thing to consider: At initialisation (auto mode on) the signal aspect of a block configured as an "open block" should not be changed (do not set to red as for a "normal block", leave as is).
Anyway, we are coming closer :)

Regards
Bernd

rvooyen
Posts: 973
Joined: 08.12.2012, 11:31
Location: Netherlands (Hilversum)

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rvooyen » 25.03.2016, 10:10

Bernd,

I am not sure I agree with you.
The signal can be green becuase the block ahead is free. Whether the loc now starts or not is up to the driver.

The block where the loc is could be a station. The train stops there because it is scheduled, but tbe signal can be green becuase the block ahead is free and the driver can start when the time to leave has arrived.

In fact the example is exactly how I want it for stations, the train stops becuase it is timetable, but the signal remains green.
The signal knows nothing about the timetable.

Regards,

Robert

Besra
Moderator
Posts: 3753
Joined: 10.08.2009, 17:54
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by Besra » 25.03.2016, 10:25

Hi Robert,

yes the signal may be green if it was already green, but it should not be set to green in advance.
In fact the example is exactly how I want it for stations, the train stops becuase it is timetable, but the signal remains green.
This could be an option for stations, but generally the signal should go to red if a train has to stop.

Regards
Bernd

rjversluis
Site Admin
Posts: 41677
Joined: 10.04.2006, 08:48
Location: Speyer, Germany
Contact:

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rjversluis » 25.03.2016, 10:30

Hi,

I leave it as it is and IMHO its OK.

cds
Moderator
Posts: 5167
Joined: 03.02.2012, 19:24
Location: Tullnerbach, Austria

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by cds » 25.03.2016, 11:06

Hello Besra!
but generally the signal should go to red if a train has to stop.
Hmmm ...
When you are in Austria next time, pick a line with block signals with train stops right before. You'll see the train stopping while the block signal in front of the train is green.

rvooyen
Posts: 973
Joined: 08.12.2012, 11:31
Location: Netherlands (Hilversum)

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rvooyen » 25.03.2016, 19:28

Hi Rob,

I have tested 10995 for the open block signals.

In general it looks to be working but there is one issue on setting the signal behind to red.
This is being set when the loc hits the IN for the next block. It should be set to red (like all others) when the next block ENTER is fired.

See attached issue files and see figure:
sit1.jpg
See signal 3 behind block 4. Block for Enter has fired but the signal not set (until IN).

Regards,

Robert
Attachments
issue.zip
(7.86 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

rjversluis
Site Admin
Posts: 41677
Joined: 10.04.2006, 08:48
Location: Speyer, Germany
Contact:

Re: Green signal when following block is clear

Post by rjversluis » 25.03.2016, 20:45

block 3 and 4 are occupied by the same loco; Why should Rocrail signal red in block 3?!
Open block or what?

Post Reply

Return to “Signal Systems”