Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect?

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Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect?

Post by Habilis » 13.11.2017, 18:09

Hi!
I am new to modeling trains and I would like to install a system for block occupancy detecting.

I read that there are 3 main systems :

IR -Infra red presence detector
by magnet ( as used by Roco )
or Current detector ( with a BD20)

I think I would like to try the IR, but I am insecure about it and about the connections with my ZD21.

Anyone has some experience on this issue ?

Thanks

peter&basti
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Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by peter&basti » 13.11.2017, 18:47

Hi Habilis,

in general: it depends on your preference.... :wink:

- For block occupancy most common are current detectors, because they are able to measure the whole block length
- IR-Sensors - maybe more ease to add to existing layout without cutting the tracks and soldering, but environmental lighting have to be considered.
- Hall-Sensors with magnet placed on the bottom of the locos - precise for exact stopping, but additional hardware required and modification on locos.

My decision on my layout is using two technologies:

1. occupancy sensors for the whole block length, representing both occupancy and ENTER sensor from both directions.
2. hall sensors representing the IN sensor for exact stopping points, at each end of a block.


Some hints for placing the magnets:
The magnets on the loco i have placed usually in the middle (typical length in H0 and Era 6 about 220 mm), what means about 110 mm offset to be considered when placing the Hall-sensor.
On longer vehicles e.g. commuter with 300 mm length 2 magnets with 110 mm distance from each front are in place to get the same stopping point.
Longer cab cars used in commuter trains have a magnet placed 110 mm from the front of the cab car.

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 13.11.2017, 23:14

Hi,
Thank you for email. It was very enlightened. So, may be the best thing would be to go for a mix.
But I think I will use current for long spaces, and IR-sensor to stop and small spaces occupancy. I don’t like the idea of insert magnets and resistances on my trains and wagons.

One of my problems is how do I connect them to have signal on my Z21?

For magnets is easy, as they are in Roco catalog, but for IR, is there a single item to apply that a person could buy ?
And what interface should be placed between the sensor and the z21 ? I saw that Roco talks about the 10808 Z21 detector. Is this the best option ? Are there any alternatives ?

Is there any kind of literature that I can found that could enlighten me about this ( in English please…or Portuguese, could also be ok. )

Thank you in advance.

madsing
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Joined: 24.07.2017, 08:00
Location: Singapore

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by madsing » 25.11.2017, 01:11

Hi,
I use the DR4088RB-CS from Digikeijs with my Z21 and it works very well, with the Z21 app and with RocRail. I use four of them for a total of 64 sensor zones. Check https://www.digikeijs.com/dr4088rb-cs-1 ... odule.html.

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 28.11.2017, 11:25

LOL I Just ordered one!!.

I understand that this is a current detection, but do you know if it is possible also to connect a IR detection with this ?

Do you have any Roco Switch’s ? Can you control them with Rocrail ? 42624 - Digital switch drive I am having some issues here!

madsing
Posts: 2
Joined: 24.07.2017, 08:00
Location: Singapore

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by madsing » 28.11.2017, 14:02

There are two versions of the DR4088RB. The OPTO and CS (Current Sensing). This is what the manual says:
The DR4088RB is a feedback module designed for the Roco™ MultiZentrale-Pro™ , Z21™ (black), z21™ (white) and is com-patible with the Roco™ 10787. The DR4088RB is available in two versions: the OPTO and CS.
DR4088RB-OPTO
The OPTO version is 100% compatible with the Roco™ 10787 and can therefore be connected in exactly the same way. This version is usually used where reed contacts or Roco™ switching rails are used.
DR4088RB-CS
The CS version has integrated current detection and can be connected directly to the rails. The DR4088RB-CS detects as little as 1mA current consumption on the rails and then sends a continuous occupied signal to the control unit.
I don't use Roco switches. I use Tomix tracks.

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 30.11.2017, 16:38

Hi,

Almost all my material is Roco, I started with that brand and I have been keep it.

I am trying to use the DR4088RB-CS and connect it directly to the tracks ( seems cheaper and seems to work ).

Is just that I can´t operate a Roco switch that I have directly with Rocrail. I can operate it if I send an"F1" command to the address 5. But I cannot operate it as a switch. I cannot figure it out.

I want also to try and connect some IR occupancy detector to the DR4088RB-CS when it arrives.

Thks

smitt48
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Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by smitt48 » 30.11.2017, 18:26

Hi,

delete all your trc files (rocrail and rocview)
start rocrail.
activate the switch on the screen, and report if the actual switch moves.
use this function: http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=issue-en
hang your issue.zip in the forum.

Tom

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 05.12.2017, 13:30

Hi,

I did as you mentioned and below is the file.

If you could help it would be appreciated, as I have my lay out on stand by waiting for this.

Thks
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

sv1iw
Posts: 46
Joined: 16.09.2014, 21:40

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by sv1iw » 16.12.2017, 12:45

Hi there
IR detection is cheap and stable. See this topic here http://forum.rocrail.net/viewtopic.php? ... 44#p149844
Is working here for more than a year...
Regards
Manos

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 19.12.2017, 20:29

Hi,

I am in the beggining yet, but I want to use in some parts IR detection, and in others Current detection.

Current I will use DR4088RB cs ( with Z21 ) but for the IR I saw that you use Arduino, but I wodn't like to mix systems so I would like to connetct the IR to the Z21 ( and to rocrail )

That connection is where I need to understand how to do it.

RedTrain
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Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by RedTrain » 19.12.2017, 22:51

Hi Habilis

I would suggest that you start small, build and fully understand and operate a small test layout.
This way you gather your own and direct experience, which is invaluable :)

Habilis
Posts: 19
Joined: 07.11.2017, 16:22
Location: Portugal

Re: Block occupancy.What system? IR magnet or current detect

Post by Habilis » 22.12.2017, 17:44

Thank you, and thats exactly what I think.
For now I want to put the DR4088RB cs detecting only 1 parking block and two ways, and then let s see how is it going.

After I want to try IR for hiden parts of the lay out.

Thks for your tip.

Regards
Antobio

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